I found this interesting, well written and on a subject that has long interested me. Here are some contrary thoughts though:
I think that perceptions of British decline is much more soundly based than you do. Seeing as you are good at graphs, maybe put together GDP per capita graphs comparing UK/USA/Germany/Japan/France/Italy over some longer time frames:
1880-2023
1945-2023
Also look at how well or badly each of these countries has managed to hold onto its famous big-name multinational corporations. This is one where the UK is in an embarrassing league of its own.
I agree that taking 1880 or 1945 as a starting point, economic decline of the UK relative to other currently rich countries (though not the USA) is pretty evident. But for someone to be concerned about the loss of the empire, about Britannia no longer ruling the waves, that person would have to be a 70 year old or 80 year old chap.
I don't think the current discussion is one in which many 70 year old Brits are participating. I think this is a public discussion by 40 year olds, 50 year olds and younger Brits. From the point of view of whether the UK is currently (XXI century) in decline and whether that is a very serious problem, not just a subject of historical interest, 1945 and 1880 are not the proper starting points in my opinion.
UK not holding onto its famous big-name multinational corporations => Agreed. Though I have two buts related to that:
- But there are a lot of new high value added companies replacing those disappeared old companies: Graphcore, GKN, Weir Group, John Wood Group, BAE, Arm, Rockstar North, Rebellion Developments, etc...
- Also, in a globalized world it's normal that a lot of up and coming new companies will be acquired by foreign companies, mostly from the US, before they can become a big-name multinational company themselves. Graphcore and Rockstar North for instance are wholly owned subsidiaries of American companies, and that might have something to do with the small cultural mismatch between the US and the UK, which means buying British companies is easier for American companies. Many Brits might not be comfortable with having a lot of very important very high value subsidiaries but not many "national champions" based in the UK.
Cherry picking, but for me Rockstar North is a good example of a company that at face value is very positive for the UK, but looked at from other angles exposes many of the deeper issues with the country.
Their Grand Theft Auto videogames are of course games about America, and while they are satirize the nation, they still contribute to American soft power and cultural dominance. Few people who play them even know they are actually made in the UK, and this is not a mistake - the UK is not globally known as a country responsible for making quality videogames, and so the fact Brits are involved is kept far away from any marketing (compare to say big name Japanese games). A friend of a friend lectures on a games design course and the vast majority of his students do not know GTA is British, and many don't even know the UK has much of a video games industry at all. To put it in perspective, the second highest grossing videogame of all time is made in the UK and no one even knows this. And that's before the fact that it's published by an American giant (Take 2) who of course pocket the lion's share of those huge profits.
Then there's also that Rockstar were originally a company called DMA Design. They were an extremely innovative and creative company who experimented with all kinds of genres of games and had smash hits across many of them (remember Lemmings?). Now they only make GTA games for their American publisher... Until I suppose those inevitably fall out of fashion, when they will be quietly taken out back and asset stripped like many a top British developer before them.
Rockstar North reportedly didn't pay any corporation tax for years while receiving UK tax credits, again to create some of the most popular videogame products ever that Americans largely profited from.
So you've got a British company who likely don't have much control over their destiny due to the demands of their American owners, making a product that increases the soft power of a rival nation, getting UK tax breaks that mostly Americans profit from. And that's one of the UK's few remaining software successes!
IT and software really is a sad story in the UK where the country really had a chance to be a major player back in the '80s, but had dropped the ball massively by the turn of the century, and will likely be an also-ran forever as a result.
Thanks for all the context on Rockstar North. I didn't know much of what you shared in your comment, though I did remember Lemmings :)
I'm probably biased in that I've done software development for different industries, and so I tend to think that getting developers to move from industry X to industry Y is not so difficult. I know, game developing is a very specialized kind of development, it's not just business software.
I do think UK's software industry is growing in other areas, say neobanks. Wise, Revolut and Monese are all based in the UK (I've used Wise a lot in the last few months and I'm very impressed with it).
On the issue of taxes, I agree that Rockstar North, or more properly Take Two, doesn't seem to be paying its fair share of taxes, but it doesn't seem like they pay much in the US either:
Good....that clears that up! I'm 72 by the way which kind of proves your point....although, in my dream world, every Brit from 25 upwards would have an educated understanding of their country's economic history.
On the subject of "national champions", France is an interesting case (and to a lesser extent Germany and Italy). France has somehow managed to retain virtually all of its big-name 'blue chip' companies.
I found this interesting, well written and on a subject that has long interested me. Here are some contrary thoughts though:
I think that perceptions of British decline is much more soundly based than you do. Seeing as you are good at graphs, maybe put together GDP per capita graphs comparing UK/USA/Germany/Japan/France/Italy over some longer time frames:
1880-2023
1945-2023
Also look at how well or badly each of these countries has managed to hold onto its famous big-name multinational corporations. This is one where the UK is in an embarrassing league of its own.
I agree that taking 1880 or 1945 as a starting point, economic decline of the UK relative to other currently rich countries (though not the USA) is pretty evident. But for someone to be concerned about the loss of the empire, about Britannia no longer ruling the waves, that person would have to be a 70 year old or 80 year old chap.
I don't think the current discussion is one in which many 70 year old Brits are participating. I think this is a public discussion by 40 year olds, 50 year olds and younger Brits. From the point of view of whether the UK is currently (XXI century) in decline and whether that is a very serious problem, not just a subject of historical interest, 1945 and 1880 are not the proper starting points in my opinion.
UK not holding onto its famous big-name multinational corporations => Agreed. Though I have two buts related to that:
- But there are a lot of new high value added companies replacing those disappeared old companies: Graphcore, GKN, Weir Group, John Wood Group, BAE, Arm, Rockstar North, Rebellion Developments, etc...
- Also, in a globalized world it's normal that a lot of up and coming new companies will be acquired by foreign companies, mostly from the US, before they can become a big-name multinational company themselves. Graphcore and Rockstar North for instance are wholly owned subsidiaries of American companies, and that might have something to do with the small cultural mismatch between the US and the UK, which means buying British companies is easier for American companies. Many Brits might not be comfortable with having a lot of very important very high value subsidiaries but not many "national champions" based in the UK.
Thanks for the comment!
Cherry picking, but for me Rockstar North is a good example of a company that at face value is very positive for the UK, but looked at from other angles exposes many of the deeper issues with the country.
Their Grand Theft Auto videogames are of course games about America, and while they are satirize the nation, they still contribute to American soft power and cultural dominance. Few people who play them even know they are actually made in the UK, and this is not a mistake - the UK is not globally known as a country responsible for making quality videogames, and so the fact Brits are involved is kept far away from any marketing (compare to say big name Japanese games). A friend of a friend lectures on a games design course and the vast majority of his students do not know GTA is British, and many don't even know the UK has much of a video games industry at all. To put it in perspective, the second highest grossing videogame of all time is made in the UK and no one even knows this. And that's before the fact that it's published by an American giant (Take 2) who of course pocket the lion's share of those huge profits.
Then there's also that Rockstar were originally a company called DMA Design. They were an extremely innovative and creative company who experimented with all kinds of genres of games and had smash hits across many of them (remember Lemmings?). Now they only make GTA games for their American publisher... Until I suppose those inevitably fall out of fashion, when they will be quietly taken out back and asset stripped like many a top British developer before them.
Rockstar North reportedly didn't pay any corporation tax for years while receiving UK tax credits, again to create some of the most popular videogame products ever that Americans largely profited from.
So you've got a British company who likely don't have much control over their destiny due to the demands of their American owners, making a product that increases the soft power of a rival nation, getting UK tax breaks that mostly Americans profit from. And that's one of the UK's few remaining software successes!
IT and software really is a sad story in the UK where the country really had a chance to be a major player back in the '80s, but had dropped the ball massively by the turn of the century, and will likely be an also-ran forever as a result.
Thanks for all the context on Rockstar North. I didn't know much of what you shared in your comment, though I did remember Lemmings :)
I'm probably biased in that I've done software development for different industries, and so I tend to think that getting developers to move from industry X to industry Y is not so difficult. I know, game developing is a very specialized kind of development, it's not just business software.
I do think UK's software industry is growing in other areas, say neobanks. Wise, Revolut and Monese are all based in the UK (I've used Wise a lot in the last few months and I'm very impressed with it).
On the issue of taxes, I agree that Rockstar North, or more properly Take Two, doesn't seem to be paying its fair share of taxes, but it doesn't seem like they pay much in the US either:
https://www.wsj.com/market-data/quotes/TTWO/financials/annual/income-statement
Good....that clears that up! I'm 72 by the way which kind of proves your point....although, in my dream world, every Brit from 25 upwards would have an educated understanding of their country's economic history.
On the subject of "national champions", France is an interesting case (and to a lesser extent Germany and Italy). France has somehow managed to retain virtually all of its big-name 'blue chip' companies.
Good 'talking' with you.